26 replies to this topic

[ohjosimpson]

So we all know 450 square inches is the minimum.
If someone had a 400 square inch cage with a 200 square inch platform why is that not acceptable but a 600 square inch cage with a wall in the middle with a 2 inch opening IS acceptable? Ive never really understood this?

[beanfings]

Because it needs to be unbroken floor space, the hamster can not run the whole 600 sqin they can only run the 400 or the 200 not both at the same time so thats why it would not be counted at 600 sqin. 

 

thats like having two 6 inch pieces of wood stacked on top of each other and saying that its 12 inches long. its only 6 inches, It would only be 12 inches if you had them end to end not stacked on top. 

Edited by beanfings, 18 July 2019 - 06:23 AM.

[ohjosimpson]

But by that logic an enclosure with different walls, bridges and sections would not be suitable because the ham can't run from one side to the other

[beanfings]

But by that logic an enclosure with different walls, bridges and sections would not be suitable because the ham can't run from one side to the other

well hides and all that are needed to make your hamster feel safe and not get bored. also hamster burrow a ton. so they can still burrow for the whole space. my hamster spend a good amount of time just climbing thought her burrows 

[Marcie]

To my knowledge, that would allow tall structures with platforms and such.

Hamsters are burrowing creatures, and require a TON of bedding and space to thrive.

They are also terrible climbers. I think the unbroken floor space rules eliminates cruel enclosures, like tiny boxes with tubes or something.

 

Edit: On top of that, it would be difficult to provide proper ventilation in a vertical structure.

Edited by Marcie, 18 July 2019 - 06:48 AM.

[Lillias]

IMO, tall dividers break up the space and should only be used if the cage is quite large because, you're right, if there's only a tiny opening, it's not really undivided space. Low dividers aren't much of an issue because hamsters can run over them.

[MerryBB]

 

 

First off, welcome to the forum!

 

You'll actually find that the minimums people frequently quote (288 sq.in, 360 sq.in, 450 sq.in, 620 sq.in, etc..) aren't really based in anything concrete. They ultimately come down to a mixture of the truth that Bigger Is Better when it comes to the space in a typical hamster's enclosure, and the semi-arbitrary reference point someone picks for an acceptable cage.

 

(For instance, the 450 sq.in 'minimum' currently popular in the US & Canada is based off the floor-space you can get from a 110 qt Sterilite latch box bin cage. The 360 sq.in 'minimum' that used to be most popular was based on the dimensions of a 20 Gallon Long tank. I'm not so sure about the 288 sq.in / 2 sq.ft and 620 sq.in / 4000 sq.cm minimums..)

 

But the question you haven't isn't specifically about that, so that's kind of a tangent..

 

Generally speaking, "levels / connected spaces don't count towards floorspace" is something people started saying as a quick way to explain why Crittertrail setups and those super tall cages with small footprints are not acceptable options. You can't just connect up a bunch of 'closets' and call it equal to a room, even if the combined spaces are technically equal.

 

But when you get to more meaningfully large spaces being added on as levels or seperate spaces attached by tubes / separated by dividers, it gets more complicated.

 

It's ultimately down to opinion on what counts as 'meaningfully large' here, because we can pretty much all agree that a tiny shelf in a Crittertrail cage is not significant; and a 600 sq.in space attached to the main cage is significant; but where would- say- a 200 sq.in shelf or added space fit in?

 

This is where I would put in a big ol' shrug emoji, but this forum shamefully doesn't have those.

 

When I first read your post, I was reminded of this topic & thought it may well be helpful to you: The Complications of Cage Size

 

(This is a really messy way to conclude a response, but I've said all I can really say for now. )

[Freakshow]

Im the odd man out here as i dont agree with all this size issue. I read that a hamster will travel five miles in a night(in the wild).  Your 450sq inch tank does not even come close to this.  Hence why we use wheels.   People are basing this magical 450 inches on one unscientific report.  I should also point out that the ASPCA Minimum = 200 square inches.  The ASPCA is a highly respected organsation.

 

Now if you want to give your hamster more room, thats great but dont be  pidgentoed but one report.

[MerryBB]

Im the odd man out here as i dont agree with all this size issue. I read that a hamster will travel five miles in a night(in the wild).  Your 450sq inch tank does not even come close to this.  Hence why we use wheels.   People are basing this magical 450 inches on one unscientific report.  I should also point out that the ASPCA Minimum = 200 square inches.  The ASPCA is a highly respected organsation.

 

Now if you want to give your hamster more room, thats great but dont be  pidgentoed but one report.

 

The problem is, cage size has very little to do with the kind of exercise that is covered by a hamster wheel.

 

Hamsters need large enclosures because they need more than the bare minimum of food, water, shelter, and exercise in order to have a good quality of life. Their primary source of enrichment is what is in their cage, and the kind of enrichment they benefit from requires a large space, therefore: hamsters need large cages.

 

As for the appeal to the ASPCA as a reputable source of information on housing/enriching hamsters.. This is an example of what would come out of following their minimum recommendations, as per the "Hamster Care" PDF, of a 10g tank with 2 inches of bedding - the obvious necessities (food/water + wheel)- a hide - and some tubes:

 

 

Even being fair and assuming that would be used for a small dwarf hamster (the wheel is a 6.5" Silent Spinner and the igloo is the smallest size - of course neither would work for a Syrian), that just flat-out isn't an enriching setup. And, considering the area & depth of the bedding, it would need very frequent deep cleanings that would completely remove the hamster's familiar scents and- in most cases- be very distressing and harmful over the course of the hamster's lifetime.

 

Maybe you still think that would be suitable to house a hamster, and I'm not going to tell you not to think that, but I am going to seriously ask you to question it..

 

(To be clear, I also think the 450 sq.in number- and similar numerical minimums- is unscientific and not all that useful when talking about a quality enclosure. It's overly specific and gives the wrong impression about the role floorspace plays in housing animals. But I don't think that should lead someone to immediately swing 'back to the 90s' and assume that the push towards larger cages is frivolous and easily debunked..)

[Robin~]

Im the odd man out here as i dont agree with all this size issue. I read that a hamster will travel five miles in a night(in the wild). Your 450sq inch tank does not even come close to this. Hence why we use wheels. People are basing this magical 450 inches on one unscientific report. I should also point out that the ASPCA Minimum = 200 square inches. The ASPCA is a highly respected organsation.

Now if you want to give your hamster more room, thats great but dont be pidgentoed but one report.

I just wanted to clarify a few things

1.) Yes, hamsters will travel miles upon miles in a night. However, this night is not spent just running-- it's spent exploring, finding food and water, etc., which you cannot provide in a 200sq in enclosure. Don't get me wrong, wheels are super important, but there's more to a cage than just the wheel.

2.) I don't believe there was any true reason for the 360/450sq in minimum other than to discourage starter cages or CritterTrails. No one is saying these cages are perfect at all, but they are a mile better than some tiny store bought cage.

3.) I'd like to also note the ASPCA is not specialized in exotics. I find a better source would be small animal rescues and ethical breeders, both of which often recommend larger cages (usually using the 450 minimum).

As for the question at hand, I like the multiple closets vs room/mansion comparison. If you have multiple rooms that are 3'x3' but have 1000 of them, it does not feel like a 9000sq ft house, it feels like a maze of a bunch of tiny rooms. But, take for example the sanctuary of a large church, it feels massive and you can run, hide, and stretch!

I do think that splitting up the tank with barriers can interfere with the accuracy of your cage size (ex.- my cage was split for bedding purposes (so two 1000sq in halves), so my female syrian went nuts in there), but with just toys and tubes that's fine. It's needed for protection and safety and it's what's in the wild, after all.

[Freakshow]

Well my cage is split. Its a 40 breeder and i have created a wall of about a 3rd of the tank. One side will be bedding the other side a sand pit. In the sand area will be the wheel and water bottle. If the water bottle does drip it will be better on sand than in paper bedding. The wheel will have the ability to freely spin as there is no bedding piled in it.

[Robin~]

Well my cage is split. Its a 40 breeder and i have created a wall of about a 3rd of the tank. One side will be bedding the other side a sand pit. In the sand area will be the wheel and water bottle. If the water bottle does drip it will be better on sand than in paper bedding. The wheel will have the ability to freely spin as there is no bedding piled in it.

If it were me I would just do 6-8" bedding everywhere and support the wheel with a platform. The 40g is tall enough to support that, and in a cage that size splitting it up isn't the greatest. If it were bigger (like in the detolf) I feel this would be ok as you'd have a space that's at least 600sq in, but when the cage itself is 650sq in splitting that up isn't really ideal.
Just my two cents

[saf]

 

 

 

I would recommend just having bedding through out the cage. If you wanted to, you could make a platform to support the wheel. Since the 40gb is not as large (as Robin mentioned, like a detolf) I would not split it. You can still have an area as a sand area without splitting the cage, where you can keep the water bottle. This is just a suggestion  

[Lillias]

Im the odd man out here as i dont agree with all this size issue. I read that a hamster will travel five miles in a night(in the wild).  Your 450sq inch tank does not even come close to this.  Hence why we use wheels.   People are basing this magical 450 inches on one unscientific report.  I should also point out that the ASPCA Minimum = 200 square inches.  The ASPCA is a highly respected organsation.

 

Now if you want to give your hamster more room, thats great but dont be  pidgentoed but one report.

 

I base my dwarf minimum on 15+ years of hamster experience. At around 500 sq in, most dwarfs without previous behavioral issues don't seem to develop typical cage aggression behaviors. It also provides enough space for the necessities and some enrichment. A bigger habitat allows you to provide more enrichment. 

 

I don't respect the ASPCA enough to lose a finger. Cages like that are precisely why dwarf hamsters have a reputation for being vicious. We can debate whether the minimum should be 450 sq in or 600 sq in or whatever, but 200 sq in = pain and blood.

[ohjosimpson]

First off, welcome to the forum!

You'll actually find that the minimums people frequently quote (288 sq.in, 360 sq.in, 450 sq.in, 620 sq.in, etc..) aren't really based in anything concrete. They ultimately come down to a mixture of the truth that Bigger Is Better when it comes to the space in a typical hamster's enclosure, and the semi-arbitrary reference point someone picks for an acceptable cage.

(For instance, the 450 sq.in 'minimum' currently popular in the US & Canada is based off the floor-space you can get from a 110 qt Sterilite latch box bin cage. The 360 sq.in 'minimum' that used to be most popular was based on the dimensions of a 20 Gallon Long tank. I'm not so sure about the 288 sq.in / 2 sq.ft and 620 sq.in / 4000 sq.cm minimums..)

But the question you haven't isn't specifically about that, so that's kind of a tangent..

Generally speaking, "levels / connected spaces don't count towards floorspace" is something people started saying as a quick way to explain why Crittertrail setups and those super tall cages with small footprints are not acceptable options. You can't just connect up a bunch of 'closets' and call it equal to a room, even if the combined spaces are technically equal.

But when you get to more meaningfully large spaces being added on as levels or seperate spaces attached by tubes / separated by dividers, it gets more complicated.

It's ultimately down to opinion on what counts as 'meaningfully large' here, because we can pretty much all agree that a tiny shelf in a Crittertrail cage is not significant; and a 600 sq.in space attached to the main cage is significant; but where would- say- a 200 sq.in shelf or added space fit in?

This is where I would put in a big ol' shrug emoji, but this forum shamefully doesn't have those.

When I first read your post, I was reminded of this topic & thought it may well be helpful to you: The Complications of Cage Size

(This is a really messy way to conclude a response, but I've said all I can really say for now. )

Thank you! This was very informative

Edited by ohjosimpson, 18 July 2019 - 08:03 PM.