25 replies to this topic

[ForeverPets]

Very interesting topic

[EAHams]

In the past, I've linebred to verify whether a hamster I was planning to keep back for breeding was carrying a recessive gene.  For the most part, the offspring from my linebreeding "test" litters would go out the door as pet hamsters, and their close genetic ties became irrelevant.  I don't usually keep the linebred stock in the breeding colony for the simple reason that I might end up linebreeding again, and no matter your justification for it, the pedigrees start looking a little cringeworthy with more than one line cross on a family branch :P

[Some~Devil]

As a Chinese Hamster Breeder I stay away from Line Breeding as much as possible, only because they are susceptible to Diabetes and tumors more-so then other breeds. This is personal preference, but I can safely say that because Dwarfs are more susceptible to Diabetes that it only makes sense for them to have more negative affects from Line Breeding and Inbreeding. (Because of so many problems being Hereditary, such as things like Diabetes.)

**Edit:
I would like to add however, as long as you are aware of the Paternal and Maternal Genetics and know that they are healthy lines I don't think it would still be a problem for Syrians or Dwarfs. It all comes down to what the Genes carry, regardless of the Species.

[Some~Devil]

I hope you aren't suggesting that Chinese hamsters are dwarfs. They are not. The whole purpose for the article is to explain how line breeding can be done appropriately and responsibly with knowledge of the family history. I'm struggling to find benefit in your "recommendations" and armchair advice. This is precisely what the issue is in the first place. 2 hamsters known to have active diabetes wouldn't be bred if they are unrelated so the idea that breeding relatives with known diabetes is no less irresponsible. The point is, knowledge of family history is necessary to breed period. The chances of diabetes showing up are just as great with unrelated hamsters when the person breeding is irresponsible. Someone who thinks Chinese hamsters are dwarfs should NOT be breeding. That is hamster 101. I hope you don't think this and are speaking of the dwarfs separately although they way you have written this, it comes across as you are calling them dwarfs.

[Melodie]

I hope you aren't suggesting that Chinese hamsters are dwarfs. They are not. The whole purpose for the article is to explain how line breeding can be done appropriately and responsibly with knowledge of the family history. I'm struggling to find benefit in your "recommendations" and armchair advice. This is precisely what the issue is in the first place. 2 hamsters known to have active diabetes wouldn't be bred if they are unrelated so the idea that breeding relatives with known diabetes is no less irresponsible. The point is, knowledge of family history is necessary to breed period. The chances of diabetes showing up are just as great with unrelated hamsters when the person breeding is irresponsible. Someone who thinks Chinese hamsters are dwarfs should NOT be breeding. That is hamster 101. I hope you don't think this and are speaking of the dwarfs separately although they way you have written this, it comes across as you are calling them dwarfs.

You have to remember that this article was written way back in 2011. That's five years ago, and A LOT has changed since then, both in our hamster care standards, and in our general knowledge of hamsters. We do know now that chinese hamsters are not dwarfs, but the person who wrote this article may not have known that at the time, and will not be reading this anyway since she is long since inactive It's a good thought though, and its great that you are trying to properly educate people on these little critters

[Ping]

I hope you aren't suggesting that Chinese hamsters are dwarfs. They are not. The whole purpose for the article is to explain how line breeding can be done appropriately and responsibly with knowledge of the family history. I'm struggling to find benefit in your "recommendations" and armchair advice. This is precisely what the issue is in the first place. 2 hamsters known to have active diabetes wouldn't be bred if they are unrelated so the idea that breeding relatives with known diabetes is no less irresponsible. The point is, knowledge of family history is necessary to breed period. The chances of diabetes showing up are just as great with unrelated hamsters when the person breeding is irresponsible. Someone who thinks Chinese hamsters are dwarfs should NOT be breeding. That is hamster 101. I hope you don't think this and are speaking of the dwarfs separately although they way you have written this, it comes across as you are calling them dwarfs.

 

We do know now that chinese hamsters are not dwarfs

 

*ahem*

 

Actually, if you read this article here, you can see why it's false to say that "Chinese hamsters aren't dwarfs". By taxonomic definition, yes, they are. We usually use the term "dwarf" to refer to RCDs, WWs and Roborovskis, but there actually isn't any valid reason why Chinese hamsters are excluded from this list.

 

Regardless, as Melodie says, the post you are referring to is over 5 years old

[Strong Brew Hamstery]

I hope you aren't suggesting that Chinese hamsters are dwarfs. They are not. The whole purpose for the article is to explain how line breeding can be done appropriately and responsibly with knowledge of the family history. I'm struggling to find benefit in your "recommendations" and armchair advice. This is precisely what the issue is in the first place. 2 hamsters known to have active diabetes wouldn't be bred if they are unrelated so the idea that breeding relatives with known diabetes is no less irresponsible. The point is, knowledge of family history is necessary to breed period. The chances of diabetes showing up are just as great with unrelated hamsters when the person breeding is irresponsible. Someone who thinks Chinese hamsters are dwarfs should NOT be breeding. That is hamster 101. I hope you don't think this and are speaking of the dwarfs separately although they way you have written this, it comes across as you are calling them dwarfs.

Getting to the root of this - I wonder how valid line breeding from a line that has shown no diabetes in relatives or descendants is actually a viable way to strengthen animals who are not susceptible to diabetes? Since I don't breed any diabetic prone species, I don't know, but now I'm going to ask some breeders I know who do work with them. I would also personally think that animals who have diabetes in their lines shouldn't be bred. All the Chinese breeders I know of test frequently and before pairing. 

[Strong Brew Hamstery]

So I reached out to Moxie Hamstery, as she breeds purebred Campbells, to ask her what her take on the issue of line breeding with diabetic prone species. I was glad to hear my own thoughts about the issue were pretty much exactly what was suggested, in that, constantly outcrossing a line is actually not going to help in the long run. 

 

Consider the following situation.

 

You have Hamster A (Bob). He is a purebred Campbells. His line shows no signs of diabetes three generations back. 

You also have Hamster B (Wilma). She is a purebred Campbells and is Bob's cousin. She also has no diabetes three generations back.

Hamster C (Susan) is also a purebred Campbells, and while her line shows no diabetes one generation back, otherwise you're not entirely sure, as she is from Breeder 2, who doesn't keep as consistent a record keeping as yours.

 

Susan is a total outcross (100% unrelated from your hamster) which can be very beneficial when diversifying the genetic 'stock' of the animals. But:

 

"just adding a bunch of unknowns into [your] line which will have a very likely chance of diabetes being carried by all the animals [you] produces. On the surface, it may *feel* like [you're] producing less diabetic animal, but the truth is these genetic dispositions are being spread around without control."

 

While you know that Susan has one generation of non-diabetic animals in her past, you have no idea if this breeding could introduce diabetes, or even other genetic problems into the pre-existing line. This article already outlines why line breeding can be a very useful tool but I'd argue that it's even more useful for diabetic prone species! If Bob and Wilma will produce another generation of hamsters that are unlikely to get diabetes, that's even better! 

 

"good breeders weed out these genes [diabetes, spinning, neurological or health issues] down the road so we are actually producing stronger animals in the long run (providing that we're making good decisions). And line breeding does this by only keeping the good genes and strengthen them and eliminate the bad." 

 

That's a super important point. Any good breeder will make strategic line breeding decisions. You don't line breed simply because you don't want to bring in new animals. You line breed to reinforce good temperament, type, health, etc. Sometimes line breeding is necessary with new mutations (right now for Syrians that's dilute and polywhite). Crossing two animals that have shown a health history of being clear of diabetes several generations back is a much better choice than bringing in an unknown.

 

From my point of view, all breeding is for improvement. In what? Health, temperament, type. In Canada and the USA where there isn't a strong emphasis on showing (for understandable reasons), there isn't as big a push on type. While I certainly do my best to adhere to proper confirmation, I will always put temperament and health first. Why? Wouldn't you rather own a hamster that is super cuddly and friendly, but maybe has ears that are too close together? It would be better to own that hamster, in my opinion, than a perfect confirmation one with a nasty habit of biting! Plus, health is a given. No one wants an unhealthy animal.

 

When you bring an animal that you don't know, even from another breeder, you're bringing in "faults" that that breeder has. Maybe their hamsters ears are too pointy - or they are particularly long. Maybe they have night terrors (mine do!), or perhaps their teeth grow too fast. Those are all traits you will want to work out, and they could compound on the ones you're already working to weed out. For me, the things I'm working with:

 

Pros

Naturally friendly and inquisitive (Everyone!)

Incredibly sweet and happy to fall asleep on your hands (Cady and Dusty)

No desire to bite (Dulce and Toby, though the only two I know that have bitten are Banana and Dusty!)

Cobby, large bodies 

Small litter size (which means bigger and healthier pups)

Laid back (My boys and Cady)

Good lifespan (18mo+ on all foundation animals)

Rich yellow colouring (Amaretto and descendants)

Blunter muzzle, well spaced ears (Amaretto, Dulce)

 

Cons

Narrow, and sometimes long head (Cady)

Long body (Dusty)

Chubby (Cady... sorry Cady :/)

Night terrors (Amaretto and his descendants - something we warn all potential adopters about!)

Sticky eyes (Dusty, Arya, Toby)

Early browning (Toby, Dulce, Cady)

 

So looking at that, let's say I choose to pair a complete outcross with Cady. Cady has some definite plusses - she's got an amazing temperament, and she produces wonderful little pups. However, type wise, she is the worst of all my hamsters. Her head is narrow and her ears are much too close together. If I pair her with hamster D named Fred, Fred may have, on the outside, a pretty decent and better head than Cady. His personality NOW might not be too bad... but I didn't know him as a pup.

 

What could happen would be that maybe Fred wasn't naturally friendly as a pup. There is a HUGE difference between natural and learned/tamed temperament. That hamster you got from the pet store who bit you and was incredibly timid and shy, but now loves you? That's a learned temperament. Cady, and her subsequent offspring, all sought out my hand as tiny two week old pups, stepped on, and took a nap. That is natural temperament. 

 

That natural temperament is something you can solidify by breeding. So Fred was not naturally friendly. His mum also had a head much worse than Cady.

 

So now I have a litter of pups who are really skittish, with super long, narrow heads. What do I do?!

 

Outcrossing, while it seems ideal, can give a breeder a lot more work than they realise. The breeder takes a hit in temperament, type, and even health potentially. This is one of the reasons why working with other breeders is so important! Strong Brew actually hopes to import some new hamsters from, what I think, is the best breeder in North America (Holmden Hills Haven). While it's important to know of the possible problems with outcrossing, it is important to know the benefits - and that's genetic diversity! We always need that.

 

So, in summary, line breeding is a great way to solidify a line and to 'stamp in' good traits. In the wrong hands - it can totally be abused. Biscotti was several generations inbred (I didn't get into in vs line, but it's in the main post) and that only exacerbated genetic issues that ultimately led to his death. Did he need to be inbred? No. Was there any benefit? No. The reason he was was simply because his 'breeder' didn't want to buy more hamsters.

 

There's a super long answer/response to you, Some~Devil! This was interesting to write. There is so much stigma about line breeding and I wish we could dissemble it because when in the right hands (ethical breeders) it is really the only way to 'fix' our hamsters! 

 

Mods - I hope this isn't too 'in depth' breeding wise. I tried not to delve into anything more than line breeding on the surface. If it is, please let me know and I'll amend it!

[EAHams]

Getting to the root of this - I wonder how valid line breeding from a line that has shown no diabetes in relatives or descendants is actually a viable way to strengthen animals who are not susceptible to diabetes? Since I don't breed any diabetic prone species, I don't know, but now I'm going to ask some breeders I know who do work with them. I would also personally think that animals who have diabetes in their lines shouldn't be bred. All the Chinese breeders I know of test frequently and before pairing. 

 

The hereditary diabetes in the dwarf hamsters is perpetuated by a number of things.

 

We can't wait to see if a given hamster is going to develop diabetes him/herself prior to breeding; it crops up too late, well after a hamster in a breeding program has already reproduced.  This means we MUST rely on accurate records kept of the prior generations.  The only way to do this to 100% is to hold back all the babies from a given litter to observe personally (for their entire lives!), OR maintain communication with all the people who purchase your babies.  The latter is easier, but requires cooperation from, sometimes, a perfect stranger who cares little about hamster genetics.  As SBH's friend at Moxie pointed out, outcrossing to an unknown is a crapshoot. 

 

A breeder working to better their chosen species should always be seeking to reduce occurrences of inherited diseases, whether it be retinal atrophy in a poodle, hip displasia in a german shepherd dog, neoplasia in golden retrievers... or diabetes in RCDs.  We can't just love them for their color or even their temperament.  A GSD might come from wonderful working lines that make epic police dogs with their strength, tenacity, and game disposition, but not if he's crippled with displasia by 4 years of age.

 

Breeders of animals such as these certainly have their work cut out for them, but that's what it means to love a species as a whole as opposed to just loving that one you got as a pet.  It's a heckuva lot more work, a heckuva lot more expensive, and you'll pretty much never get thanked for it.

[SmBanks]

Great Post, It is amazing to see how far we have come in breeding/care since a scientist dug up a field in Syria for a Female and her 8 pups. They did not know that mom does not like people touching her babies and when they moved them she started eating them. The scientist then put her down because he thought that the mother was a savage creature because according to him no mother would do that to their children. 7 pups were transported to Israel. Three of them died on the trip. Two later escaped and were never found. Leaving Scientists with 1 brother/sister pairing who are the Adam and Eve of the domesticated hamster world.

[No Longer Active]

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Edited by Pandas Pets, 06 December 2018 - 12:06 AM.