84 replies to this topic

[Pixl]

Wow, I've read through this, and enjoyed the ride. This topic is toxiccc on all sides

 

First off: 

 

Nobody thinks that they, themselves, are lazy. Nobody says to themselves "Oh I aM qUiTe a laZy iNdiViduAL I WiLl get a HaMster froM a pet sTorE and mAke uP an exCuse hEhEhE"...

 

  People don't think that they are doing anything wrong. Unless they have seen the mills themselves and deemed them horrifying, or know full and well where their hamster came from, you can't really "blame them"... It's not the 5-year-olds fault at the store for being a kid and wanting a hamster. 

 

 Yes, adopting is a much better choice than shopping. But many times it is incredibly inconvenient for people to adopt. The distance, lack of hamsters available, and just the fact that people just don't care that much about a hamster.

 

 And I would also like to add, buying a hamster from petco or petsmart doesn't really support the mill owners too much. Think about it, the store selling the hamster is getting all of the money. What happens is that he "breeders" sell the hamsters to the store for about 3 bucks each. The hamsters are already payed for. None of your money is actually going back to the mill. Yes, this encourages petco to buy more hamsters from the mill, thus supporting the business, but a few purchases really won't keep the mill itself running. Even if everybody on this website, heck, everybody on ANY hamster forum stopped buying from pet stores, the mills would still be running. 

 

 There's no stopping that, unless the government gets notice. In California, there have already been laws passed against puppy, kitten, rabbit, and (I think?) rat mills! They are only a few steps away from banning rodent mills entirely. As long as the public stands up against the rodent mills, the issue will become evident to the government. Make a petition, group together some supporters and try to protest, etc. 

 

Also, try to note that many of the "rodent mills" that we see in the peta articles and stuff are the ABSOLUTE WORST-CASE SCENARIO FOR ANYTHING EVER. Many mills, although they do not treat their animals correctly, DO NOT torture the animals bred as poorly as many of the examples seen and spread across the internet.

 In case you were wondering, this is what the average hamster mill actually looks like: http://photos.dailyitem.com/Other/Hamster-Farm/i-wtBswvz (If the link doesn't work, try to copy and paste)

 

   As you can see, really not the best care, in fact, barely adequate, but not the absolute worst either. The hamsters are kept in separate cages besides when they breed, and the pregnant females have plenty of access to extra food water, and bedding so that hey can build their nest. The animal mill is not TRYING to abuse the hamsters. Still, the conditions are pretty disgusting. I would just like to use this for reference and show what they look like in case you didn't know. 

 

 Yes, hamster mills should definitely be stopped, but simply arguing about it will do nothing.

 

 (Note- I am in no way defending animal mills in this instance.. I honestly think they are absolutely disgusting. I am trying to give unbiased information, and that includes both sides of the story. Yes, I did get my first hamster from a pet store, and in all honesty, I don't regret it. I feel a bit bad for supporting animal mills, but that's it. Charlemagne was one of the sweetest, (yet pickiest) hamsters ever. He was kept in a small container at the pet store, and chewed on it like crazy. I am glad I was able to give him an adequate home. Even If I didn't buy him, do you think that the petco wouldn't have gotten more anyways? Or, maybe a worse fate, he would'be been taken by an inexperienced child to a crittertrail with a 6" wheel for his entire life.. *shudders*)

 

Edit: grammar

Edited by Pixl, 11 January 2018 - 09:03 PM.

[Tango~]

This post has a great message. Everyone should adopt not shop. One of my worst mistakes was getting my first hamster from Petsmart. There are so many hamsters that need a home we shouldn't be supporting animal mills to abuse and over breed them inhumanely. Great post thank for sharing this wonderful message!

[Suga]

I think maybe it would be more constructive to find ways to educate the general public about this issue rather than arguing with individuals. It takes a large body of people to enact change.

 

When I enter Petsmart, I often see little kids with their parents impulse buying hamsters. As frustrating as it is, I can't blame those individuals, and I don't want to- I'm not a selfless person.

 

I would love to engage in a positive discussion about ways to help. (Obviously not buying pet store hamsters is one way that I stand behind.)   

 

I don't blame people who purchase animals from pet stores when they're unaware of rodent mills and what goes on there. We all make mistakes and what's important is learning from them and changing. However, there are many people, even on this forum, who are fully aware of what happens behind the scenes and yet CHOOSES to continue supporting pet stores. That, I cannot understand.

 

Wow, I've read through this, and enjoyed the ride. This topic is toxiccc on all sides

 

First off: 

 

Nobody thinks that they, themselves, are lazy. Nobody says to themselves "Oh I aM qUiTe a laZy iNdiViduAL I WiLl get a HaMster froM a pet sTorE and mAke uP an exCuse hEhEhE"...

 

  People don't think that they are doing anything wrong. Unless they have seen the mills themselves and deemed them horrifying, or know full and well where their hamster came from, you can't really "blame them"... It's not the 5-year-olds fault at the store for being a kid and wanting a hamster. 

 

 Yes, adopting is a much better choice than shopping. But many times it is incredibly inconvenient for people to adopt. The distance, lack of hamsters available, and just the fact that people just don't care that much about a hamster.

 

 And I would also like to add, buying a hamster from petco or petsmart doesn't really support the mill owners too much. Think about it, the store selling the hamster is getting all of the money. What happens is that he "breeders" sell the hamsters to the store for about 3 bucks each. The hamsters are already payed for. None of your money is actually going back to the mill. Yes, this encourages petco to buy more hamsters from the mill, thus supporting the business, but a few purchases really won't keep the mill itself running.

 

I don't shame people who do not know any better. We all make mistakes, especially when we're unaware that we're even making one. However, people who know exactly what they're supporting when they purchase from pet stores yet do it anyway, that I'm not on board with. 

 

Since when was convenience a viable reason for not adopting? How is any excuse acceptable for buying a live animal from a pet store?

 

The pet trade is massive, I think you're really underestimating just how much each purchase from a pet store supports a mill or backyard breeder. Yes, your money DOES go to supporting a mill, I just don't understand your argument. A few purchases at a few thousand pet stores will add up, mills make tons of money off the pet trade.

 

Even if everybody on this website, heck, everybody on ANY hamster forum stopped buying from pet stores, the mills would still be running. 

 

 There's no stopping that, unless the government gets notice. In California, there have already been laws passed against puppy, kitten, rabbit, and (I think?) rat mills! They are only a few steps away from banning rodent mills entirely. As long as the public stands up against the rodent mills, the issue will become evident to the government. Make a petition, group together some supporters and try to protest, etc. 

 

You're contradicting yourself here. You're saying that no matter how many people stop buying live animals from pet stores, the mills would continue to run, however if we get together to stand up against rodent mills, we will get closer to banning them. Not purchasing live animals from a pet stores is one way to stand up against pet mills, yet you're saying it won't matter if we purchase animals from pet stores because it won't make a difference. Sounds a bit contradictory to me.

 

 

Also, try to note that many of the "rodent mills" that we see in the peta articles and stuff are the ABSOLUTE WORST-CASE SCENARIO FOR ANYTHING EVER. Many mills, although they do not treat their animals correctly, DO NOT torture the animals bred as poorly as many of the examples seen and spread across the internet.

 In case you were wondering, this is what the average hamster mill actually looks like: http://photos.dailyitem.com/Other/Hamster-Farm/i-wtBswvz (If the link doesn't work, try to copy and paste)

 

   As you can see, really not the best care, in fact, barely adequate, but not the absolute worst either. The hamsters are kept in separate cages besides when they breed, and the pregnant females have plenty of access to extra food water, and bedding so that hey can build their nest. The animal mill is not TRYING to abuse the hamsters. 

 

 Yes, hamster mills should definitely be stopped, but simply arguing about it will do nothing.

 

 (Note- I am in no way defending animal mills in this instance.. I honestly think they are absolutely disgusting. I am trying to give unbiased information, and that includes both sides of the story. Yes, I did get my first hamster from a pet store, and in all honesty, I don't regret it. I feel a bit bad for supporting animal mills, but that's it. Charlemagne was one of the sweetest, (yet pickiest) hamsters ever. He was kept in a small container at the pet store, and chewed on it like crazy. I am glad I was able to give him an adequate home. Even If I didn't buy him, do you think that the petco wouldn't have gotten more anyways? Or, maybe a worse fate, he would'be been taken by an inexperienced child to a crittertrail with a 6" wheel for his entire life.. *shudders*)

 

I clicked the link you provided, those conditions are absolutely horrifying. Yes, there are no obviously injured animals, however the mill who provided those photos would have sent the ones that portray them in the best light possible and even those photos are terrible. There are so many hamsters crammed into tiny bins with absolutely no bedding, and they seem to be fed a very bland diet of only pellets. Just because there are no physical injuries on the hamsters doesn't mean that they're not being tortured and neglected.

 

"Not the absolute worst"? I don't know what you're seeing, but those photos look pretty horrific to me. I can't understand how people try to justify by saying some mills are "not the worst", they're all absolutely horrible.

 

We are not "simply arguing" about hamster mills and adopting instead of buying. We're trying to bring awareness to the topic, yet there are still so many people who'd rather ignore the facts and continue purchasing hamsters, because of convenience, or money, or whatever reason they deem acceptable to do so. And in my eyes, that's just not okay. 

 

Justifying buying a hamster by saying "he would have gone to a bad home if I hadn't taken him" doesn't make sense to me either. By buying that hamster, your money allowed dozens more to be bred by mills, and sold to bad homes. Yes, your hamster didn't go to a child with a critter trail, however the money used to buy your hamster allowed for even more hamsters to go to inadequate homes. It's a vicious cycle and people need to stop making excuses for themselves to continue the cycle. Yes, if you hadn't bought him, the Petco wouldn't have gotten more hamsters, at least not as quickly. The more people buy hamsters, the demand keeps increasing, and the stores order in more hamsters than before. The less people buy hamsters, the demand decreases, and the stores order in less hamsters than before, in anticipation that they'll sell less quickly. For each hamster someone buys, another one will take its place. Stop purchasing hamsters, and there will be no empty space for another one to take its place.

[Lokakuinen]

To people saying topics like these won't solve the situation:

 

This forum is one of the largest English speaking hamster forums in the world. Still, it's certainly not going to stop hamster mills at once, oh no. But it's one way to spread awareness, and we have seen how people say "wow, I didn't know about mills, I won't buy hamsters from stores anymore!" And some of these people tell other people about it, again spreading the word, outside this forum too. And not just in one country.

 

I think it's a good start, and much better than staying absolutely silent about the issue.

 

Edit: Tried to add a smiley face, but now it did seem somehow toxic to me

Edited by Lokakuinen, 11 January 2018 - 04:31 PM.

[Pixl]

 

I don't blame people who purchase animals from pet stores when they're unaware of rodent mills and what goes on there. We all make mistakes and what's important is learning from them and changing. However, there are many people, even on this forum, who are fully aware of what happens behind the scenes and yet CHOOSES to continue supporting pet stores. That, I cannot understand.

 

 

I don't shame people who do not know any better. We all make mistakes, especially when we're unaware that we're even making one. However, people who know exactly what they're supporting when they purchase from pet stores yet do it anyway, that I'm not on board with. 

 

Since when was convenience a viable reason for not adopting? How is any excuse acceptable for buying a live animal from a pet store?

 

The pet trade is massive, I think you're really underestimating just how much each purchase from a pet store supports a mill or backyard breeder. Yes, your money DOES go to supporting a mill, I just don't understand your argument. A few purchases at a few thousand pet stores will add up, mills make tons of money off the pet trade.

 

 

You're contradicting yourself here. You're saying that no matter how many people stop buying live animals from pet stores, the mills would continue to run, however if we get together to stand up against rodent mills, we will get closer to banning them. Not purchasing live animals from a pet stores is one way to stand up against pet mills, yet you're saying it won't matter if we purchase animals from pet stores because it won't make a difference. Sounds a bit contradictory to me.

 

 

 

I clicked the link you provided, those conditions are absolutely horrifying. Yes, there are no obviously injured animals, however the mill who provided those photos would have sent the ones that portray them in the best light possible and even those photos are terrible. There are so many hamsters crammed into tiny bins with absolutely no bedding, and they seem to be fed a very bland diet of only pellets. Just because there are no physical injuries on the hamsters doesn't mean that they're not being tortured and neglected.

 

"Not the absolute worst"? I don't know what you're seeing, but those photos look pretty horrific to me. I can't understand how people try to justify by saying some mills are "not the worst", they're all absolutely horrible.

 

We are not "simply arguing" about hamster mills and adopting instead of buying. We're trying to bring awareness to the topic, yet there are still so many people who'd rather ignore the facts and continue purchasing hamsters, because of convenience, or money, or whatever reason they deem acceptable to do so. And in my eyes, that's just not okay. 

 

Justifying buying a hamster by saying "he would have gone to a bad home if I hadn't taken him" doesn't make sense to me either. By buying that hamster, your money allowed dozens more to be bred by mills, and sold to bad homes. Yes, your hamster didn't go to a child with a critter trail, however the money used to buy your hamster allowed for even more hamsters to go to inadequate homes. It's a vicious cycle and people need to stop making excuses for themselves to continue the cycle. Yes, if you hadn't bought him, the Petco wouldn't have gotten more hamsters, at least not as quickly. The more people buy hamsters, the demand keeps increasing, and the stores order in more hamsters than before. The less people buy hamsters, the demand decreases, and the stores order in less hamsters than before, in anticipation that they'll sell less quickly. For each hamster someone buys, another one will take its place. Stop purchasing hamsters, and there will be no empty space for another one to take its place.

 

 

 First off, I'm not listing any of those as a 'liable excuse'.. I'm just listing the reasons why people don't go. It doesn't have to be really logical. People, sometimes, can be just lazy, and use these as an excuse.

 

  I'm not contradicting myself. If we raise awareness through the government, and try to petition it could work. If we keep the talk about adoption and mills just on the forum alone and simply don't buy any hamsters, nobody would notice. The problem is, everybody always (rightly so) complains about the mills, yet don't do anything about it in real life. Usually, most people just adopt hamsters, keep quiet, and that's that.

 

Yes, the conditions are pretty <super> horrible. I agree. But lots of the time, people think that hamster mills are literally, like, 5 hamsters stuffed into water bottles (... which has happened before.. ugh) I just wanted to put the link up so people knew what they looked like. Yet again, it really is barely adequate, and pretty <super> disgusting.

 

 And 'bringing awareness' about mills on a forum dedicated to hamsters, in my opinion, isn't really effective. Many people on this forum already know about the horrible conditions animals face in mills, and those who do often do not buy. This can be informative to those who don't know however, but that won't change the fact that they already bought their first hamster from a store. and often times, the cruel part is, that many people, although presented with this information, continue to buy from stores anyway. Aside from a select few people who are on forums, many simply do not care about hamsters that much. They are often viewed as 'disposable' pets. 

 

 I think that he only way to stop mills is through legal action. As mentioned before, It doesn't matter how many people buy from the mills, they will always be open unless the state (or country) itself outlaws them.

[top tier hippo]

Hey, Dusty? If all these members here are trying to stop the mills (or more specifically, people buying hamsters from them), then maybe you could pin theis topic somewhere to help spread awareness?  

[Gab33]

To people saying topics like these won't solve the situation:

 

This forum is one of the largest English speaking hamster forums in the world. Still, it's certainly not going to stop hamster mills at once, oh no. But it's one way to spread awareness, and we have seen how people say "wow, I didn't know about mills, I won't buy hamsters from stores anymore!" And some of these people tell other people about it, again spreading the word, outside this forum too. And not just in one country.

 

I think it's a good start, and much better than staying absolutely silent about the issue.

 

Edit: Tried to add a smiley face, but now it did seem somehow toxic to me

 

I don't really think topics like these help in that this topic is just 3 pages of people arguing with each other. If I was an outsider to this forum, I would be confused and turned off. I think pinned informational topics detailing facts are more conducive to change. Not that topics can't raise awareness, just that this one doesn't seem to be working.  

[Pixl]

I don't really think topics like these help in that this topic is just 3 pages of people arguing with each other. If I was an outsider to this forum, I would be confused and turned off. I think pinned informational topics detailing facts are more conducive to change. Not that topics can't raise awareness, just that this one doesn't seem to be working.  

 

 Yeah. I totally agree. For the first few pages, it's literally just members getting frustrated with each other and arguing. Nobody is suggesting, or working towards, any long term solutions here. People are just shaming people for getting hams from pet stores.. nothing else. I think that all our (yea, especially mine) responses could all be a lot more detailed, and contain less opinions. Yes, we all agree that hamster mills are bad. That is undisputed. We should be working towards solutions and spreading awareness, not just talking about how awful the mills are.

[Suga]

Nobody is suggesting, or working towards, any long term solutions here. People are just shaming people for getting hams from pet stores.. nothing else.

 

 

One solution is to stop buying from pet stores, which is why Ash posted the topic, to bring awareness to people who might not necessarily know how to stand up against mills. I don't shame people for getting hamsters from pet stores if they were unaware of mills, like I said, people make mistakes. However, I don't agree with people who know about mills and choose to continue to purchase live animals from the pet store.

 

Yes, we all agree that hamster mills are bad. That is undisputed. We should be working towards solutions and spreading awareness, not just talking about how awful the mills are.

 

If we all agree that rodent mills are bad, then we should all agree that we should not be purchasing live animals from the pet store to support these mills. This post IS spreading awareness, there are still so many people out there who are unaware of the horrible conditions of rodent mills, or even the existence of rodent mills. Talking about how awful the mills are IS bringing awareness to the topic. There are many non members who browse the forum as guests who could read this and learn, and this topic could show up on google searches, then another person who is unaware of the truth of rodent mills could read this and learn also.

[nebit]

 I think that he only way to stop mills is through legal action. As mentioned before, It doesn't matter how many people buy from the mills, they will always be open unless the state (or country) itself outlaws them.

Legal action doesn't stop mills, and lawmakers only consider legal action if they have support from their constituents- which means when enough people stop buying from mills and talking about how bad they are- THAT'S when lawmakers start to get involved.

 

It's also notable that much of what goes on in say, puppy mills is already illegal. Mills continue because there is profit to be made, and because people in charge f enforcement often look the other way, or have no real legal means of enforcing the law. With less profit though, there are less mills- there's no point in making a product that people won't buy.

[Ladysnuggable]

This is why i like my local store. They just started breeding in house. Their hamster guy is very educated in care and has learned a lot over the years of working with these animals. I just recently found out we go to the same vet as their animals so they are in very good hands. If only more stores would learn how to take the animals into consideration. They also take animals from the public who are unwanted. I just got a rescue robo who has some abbesses from being kept in a group cage. The guy who works with the hamsters got pretty attached and was screening who Ople went to.

[top tier hippo]

This is why i like my local store. They just started breeding in house. Their hamster guy is very educated in care and has learned a lot over the years of working with these animals. I just recently found out we go to the same vet as their animals so they are in very good hands. If only more stores would learn how to take the animals into consideration. They also take animals from the public who are unwanted. I just got a rescue robo who has some abbesses from being kept in a group cage. The guy who works with the hamsters got pretty attached and was screening who Ople went to.

Oh, that's lucky! When u said "breeding", I was like "oh, no", but nevermind!

[HamsterPooey]

Perhaps one ought to save up more money or not get a pet unless their financial situation is decent enough so the gas money won't ruin their chances to go to the vet. 

 

And if that seems like a "waste", there's the option I know many don't agree with: don't get a hamster. At least not until you can find one nearby - if there's a pet shop selling hamsters, there will be hamsters up for adoption at some point. Or if your conscience can take it, sure, give more money to the mill. No one can stop you, we can only try to spread the information about the cruelty the money is supporting. 

The problem with having a couple hours drive to the nearest shelter is going back for me. I wouldn't be able to stand keeping the poor little hamster all shaky and scared in a little carrier or box for a couple hours. The hamster could get extremely stressed in a shaky, new environment. I don't think it would be healthy for the hamster.

[Ashkid101]

ok ok, lemme bud in here.

All i'm saying is, don't buy from a pet store because you are giving money to animal abuse.

And arguments have started. I really do not understand. If you can't get a hamster without supporting animal abuse, don't get a hamster. It's like if you're hiking along a mountain and come across a cliff. You don't say "oh there's no bridge, the only thing i can do is jump!" Heck no, you turn your rear around and find another trail.

 

To those who are saying that we need to be taking action.

We are trying to get people to take action. This is an educational thread to let people know how bad mills are in hopes that people will stop buying from mills. If you didn't know about mills before and have bought hamsters in the past, well now you know. enough said. If you knew about mills and still bought, well well. I don't understand your logic and excuses. 

 

 

The problem with having a couple hours drive to the nearest shelter is going back for me. I wouldn't be able to stand keeping the poor little hamster all shaky and scared in a little carrier or box for a couple hours. The hamster could get extremely stressed in a shaky, new environment. I don't think it would be healthy for the hamster.

if  you really think 2 hours is too much for the hamster think about all the shipping, packing, taking away from mothers, and bad handling the mill hamsters go through. If you have health concerns just take it to the vet.

[nebit]

The problem with having a couple hours drive to the nearest shelter is going back for me. I wouldn't be able to stand keeping the poor little hamster all shaky and scared in a little carrier or box for a couple hours. The hamster could get extremely stressed in a shaky, new environment. I don't think it would be healthy for the hamster.

How do you think the hamsters get to the pet store from the mill?

Not too mention if you're concerned about what is healthy for the hamster... being bred and raised in a hamster mill is far LESS healthy than being subjected to a few hour car drive once in it's life.

 

Reputable breeders transport hamsters long distances all the time- it's slightly stressful, yes, but any move to a new home is. Being transported alone, in an appropriate container with warm deep bedding, food, and a kind person nearby is a far better and less stressful scenario than what pets hop hamsters go through. In my experience, most hamsters don't seem all that bothered by the drive, I've picked up new hamsters from locations over an hour away several times.